Америка и честность. Мнение эмигранта

[Romas Профиль ICQ]

Вопрос совершенно не в том, чтобы уйти.
Человек Вы, в целом адекватный, да и читать Вас интересно.
Так что все хорошо.)

[Kent Профиль СайтICQ]

Да, интересно.

[commissar Профиль]

[quote=Kent]
Да, интересно.
[/quote]

No one yet answered to the last post, see below:

Я когда-нибудь говорил, что все должны подчиняться США???
Страна - классная, не единственная классная, но одна из них.
Русское мышление - это значит хаять США? Тут без меня хаяльщиков много, миллионы таких, однако они от этого русскими не стали.
И вообще, что значит русское, или американское, или казахское, или французское, или какое-то другое национальное мышление?

[Наждачог Профиль ICQ]

отвечу косвенно
допустим Петя Иванов дал люлей Васе Сидорову сказав при этом, что он отобрал у него машинку и сломал, Петя Иванов забрал у него самолётик как бы в компенсацию, большинство в это поверили и начали восхвалять Петю Иванова, говорить какой он хороший мальчик и всё в этом роде... потом выясняется, что у Васи Сидорова отродясь небыло машинки и отобрать бы он её не смог бы впринципе всвязи с разными комплекциями и возрастом ребятишек, а началось всё из-за того, что Вася Сидоров отказался уходить из песочницы когда туда пришёл Петя Иванов, все начали говорить, что Петя Иванов очень плохой ребёнок и что из него вырастет только бандит, но родители Пети Иванова продолжают говорить, что их сынок самый лучший в мире, он кормит птичек на улице(закрывая глаза на то, что он после этого отстреливает этих птичек из воздушки) и то, что они, его родители сами кормят птичек этих и вобщем семья у них очень хорошая и крепкая, коей должны завидовать большинство семей
Вобщем, комиссар, ты - родители Пети Иванова

[rjo Профиль]

[quote=commissar]
[quote=Kent]
Да, интересно.
[/quote]

No one yet answered to the last post, see below:

Я когда-нибудь говорил, что все должны подчиняться США???
Страна - классная, не единственная классная, но одна из них.
Русское мышление - это значит хаять США? Тут без меня хаяльщиков много, миллионы таких, однако они от этого русскими не стали.
И вообще, что значит русское, или американское, или казахское, или французское, или какое-то другое национальное мышление?
[/quote]

It doesn't really matter, what do we mean exactly by our words "быть русским".

There is some culture difference and that's enough.

We have really different values, and this does matter.

So, your only crime is "to be an American", not Russian :-)

Well, what does this mean exactly?

First of all - you believe in a few culture myths, but we doesn't - we have our own myths, in which we believe.
Look at your own words about "democracy" - we think here in Russia that any democracy is just a mean for smthng, not a target.
Mean for what, you'd say? Just for power. And any who has a power will try to keep it.
Your politic system is unique (maybe the British one is quite similar) - there are P and D and they has some balance. We believe that this is just a beautiful theater to keep real power in one hands - banking society.

You believe, that US has a real democracy, but can you say - what exactly does this mean?
What about human rights, do you include them in the 'democracy' or not? )))
What about straight elections, available for every citizen?
What about "speech freedom" and other myths?

Do you now, that here in Russia every 1 citizen = 1 vote.
We have really simple and standard procedure for every citizen - got a cross on a special blank and put it in a 'voting urn'.
Your elections have many nuances in every state, do they? )
Really, our elections (as formal procedure) are much more simpler than yours, and your experts know about it. No flaws and nuances, 1 citizen = 1 vote. There can not be situation like you had with previous President elections.

What about FOX news and Bush team?
Can you hear from them any information about Bush flaws and failures? )
In very rare choices, indeed. In other 95% times - white and fluffy. :-)
Is it really a freedom?

Here in Russia we have thousands of papers, and minimum in 50% there are a lot of critics of Putin.

About 90% of journalists call Russia very pejoratively 'this country'. Is this normal? We have too much freedom, not too less...

Real difference is on the myths level, in culture.
Most of American people are very good guys and i like them - very open people, having high mobility level. Maybe i knew too few of them, but it is another question.

Maybe in about 100 years all the world will have one fixed set of myths, but today it doesn't look so. And we don't want that.

So, when you say "US is better" we say "Russia is better", no matter why :-)

I think we can better understand each other in dialogue.
In the other hand, we wouldn't forget our own priorities while speaking to each other.

Also, about your question 'what does mean a Russian or any other national thinking?' - please, read the ethnos theory of Лев Николаевич Гумилев called "Пассионарный толчок".
This is quite interesting theory and it's a mainstream - sure, you'll find it very interesting. I can give a link to you if you'll not find it in the Net.

So, the answer is - identity.

We identify ourselves as Russian. And you - as American. Or not? )

[commissar Профиль]

[quote=rjo]
[quote=commissar]
[quote=Kent]
Да, интересно.
[/quote]

No one yet answered to the last post, see below:

Я когда-нибудь говорил, что все должны подчиняться США???
Страна - классная, не единственная классная, но одна из них.
Русское мышление - это значит хаять США? Тут без меня хаяльщиков много, миллионы таких, однако они от этого русскими не стали.
И вообще, что значит русское, или американское, или казахское, или французское, или какое-то другое национальное мышление?
[/quote]

It doesn't really matter, what do we mean exactly by our words "быть русским".

There is some culture difference and that's enough.

We have really different values, and this does matter.

So, your only crime is "to be an American", not Russian :-)

Well, what does this mean exactly?

First of all - you believe in a few culture myths, but we doesn't - we have our own myths, in which we believe.
Look at your own words about "democracy" - we think here in Russia that any democracy is just a mean for smthng, not a target.
Mean for what, you'd say? Just for power. And any who has a power will try to keep it.
Your politic system is unique (maybe the British one is quite similar) - there are P and D and they has some balance. We believe that this is just a beautiful theater to keep real power in one hands - banking society.

You believe, that US has a real democracy, but can you say - what exactly does this mean?
What about human rights, do you include them in the 'democracy' or not? )))
What about straight elections, available for every citizen?
What about "speech freedom" and other myths?

Do you now, that here in Russia every 1 citizen = 1 vote.
We have really simple and standard procedure for every citizen - got a cross on a special blank and put it in a 'voting urn'.
Your elections have many nuances in every state, do they? )
Really, our elections (as formal procedure) are much more simpler than yours, and your experts know about it. No flaws and nuances, 1 citizen = 1 vote. There can not be situation like you had with previous President elections.

What about FOX news and Bush team?
Can you hear from them any information about Bush flaws and failures? )
In very rare choices, indeed. In other 95% times - white and fluffy. :-)
Is it really a freedom?

Here in Russia we have thousands of papers, and minimum in 50% there are a lot of critics of Putin.

About 90% of journalists call Russia very pejoratively 'this country'. Is this normal? We have too much freedom, not too less...

Real difference is on the myths level, in culture.
Most of American people are very good guys and i like them - very open people, having high mobility level. Maybe i knew too few of them, but it is another question.

Maybe in about 100 years all the world will have one fixed set of myths, but today it doesn't look so. And we don't want that.

So, when you say "US is better" we say "Russia is better", no matter why :-)

I think we can better understand each other in dialogue.
In the other hand, we wouldn't forget our own priorities while speaking to each other.

Also, about your question 'what does mean a Russian or any other national thinking?' - please, read the ethnos theory of Лев Николаевич Гумилев called "Пассионарный толчок".
This is quite interesting theory and it's a mainstream - sure, you'll find it very interesting. I can give a link to you if you'll not find it in the Net.

So, the answer is - identity.

We identify ourselves as Russian. And you - as American. Or not? )
[/quote]

Very pleased to read a great post.

Voting system here: yes, every state has its own rules. That's because this is not federal government's business. Most elections are on a local level with the exception of presidential elections.

Had Democrats won the last 2 presidential elections there would not have been so much noise. They did not like the outcome and that is why they made a stink. Had it been what they hoped for they would have kept their mouths shut.

Mind you, every vote was count. Every single one. Can you remember such precise counting in Russia? To my recollection, it has always been "thousand, here, thousand there, who cares". Not that Putin had not been elected even if all votes were counted correctly, but that is another subject.

There is no direct presidential election, true. The current Electoral College system has been scrutinized many times throughout the history and was left alone. It seems to work, although may not be perfect. I would be OK with either. Although with direct election hardly anyone would care about fewer populated states and that was the whole reason for the current system, to my knowledge.

Freedom of speech: it is true that in Russia there are lots of different opinions in the media; however, the main media outlets that reache the vast majority of people are pro-Goverment. The opposition ones can only enjoy freedom on the Internet that most Russians have no access to.

In US, most media belongs to left-wingers that are very critical of the current Government. FoxNews seems to be the only exception. I would not call Fox pro-Bush though, far from that. Besides, pro- or against Bush is not a criteria that I use anyway. Now, the Internet news sources & talk radio are more conservative than TV & newspapers.

Assumming Fox is pro-current Government (it is not though), the rest of them are not.

Real democracy means equal access for all candidates, free unrestricted elections conforming to the law; accountability of elected representatives; freedom of speech and of press. That's what first comes to my mind.

I did not say Russia is better or US is better, it would be too broad statement which does not mean a thing. Each country is better in some ways and worse in other ways for every given individual as we are all created unique.

I do not think of my mentality being American or Russian. I know many people in Russia who agree with me and many that do not, and likewise here in the US. Unfortunately, I don't feel comfortable in Russia like I was relatively comfortable in the former USSR; I feel much better in USA than in modern Russia; so I guess you can call me American.

[rjo Профиль]

[quote=commissar]
Very pleased to read a great post.

Voting system here: yes, every state has its own rules. That's because this is not federal government's business. Most elections are on a local level with the exception of presidential elections.

Had Democrats won the last 2 presidential elections there would not have been so much noise. They did not like the outcome and that is why they made a stink. Had it been what they hoped for they would have kept their mouths shut.
[/quote]

The business is not in P or D - they are just an actors (read, objects, not subjects).

I said in prev post about theater and banking society - any objections? :-)
About real power?

There is not really any power in hands of P or D. They just play game.

So the democracy it's just a myth.

You elect somebody, but your elections influence only for a few (to be honest, not very important) things, f.e. gay rights.

The only real power has a large business. Banking, oil, army (production and supply, say hello to Halliburton) and so on.

Their only target - make money. Make huge amount of money.
And you pay them.

Nobody says (read, "press & TV") about your real problems.

What about Medicare?
What about your migrating policy?
What about American identity?
What about an industrial crisis?
Your GDP is now more then 70% of services - this is the greatest disbalance (and you speak about China disbalances? :-)))) of your economy.
You have a loan which is at least 5 times more then your GDP (gov + corp + pvt).

These are the real problems, and only experts in their narrow society speak about them.

I don't say that US is bad or smthng like that - a say that most of your society live in myths... Which was built by press within last 70-100 years...
And the worst that only a 0.001% of population understand that.

[quote=commissar]
Mind you, every vote was count. Every single one. Can you remember such precise counting in Russia? To my recollection, it has always been "thousand, here, thousand there, who cares". Not that Putin had not been elected even if all votes were counted correctly, but that is another subject.
[/quote]

Yes, i remember such precise counting in Russia.

We have very accurate system of counting and very strong punishment to the officials for errors. Okay, we have it 10 years, and US more than 100, so what?

Do you now, that Putin never has rating less then 70%? :-)

And this is really true - ask practically everybody and every person will tell you about it.

The main Putin advantage - it identify himself with Russia.
And his crew too.
And the large business, formed at last 8-10 years, identify themselves with Russia. This is elite, they has a real power here.

Do you think that our opposition identify themselves with Russia?
No.

Look at these guys from "Another Russia" - they live for a long time at US or Europe.
Kasparos, Kasjanov and others - they are not Russian.

And they work for their US owners.

Please read (авторизуйтесь для просмотра ссылок) - they has a lot of US or European publication about Russia.
Practically every one of them speak about "opposition".

But the truth is that the guys at "Another Russia" are not the opposition - they are just Russian foes.

Do we have any public person, that identify himself with Russia and can be a serious pretender to become a President?

No. And it is quite sad.

But i'm sure - live for 10-20 years and we will have a really advanced and balanced politic system here with opposition and all these theater persons.

Maybe not everybody believes, but i do.

Ask people here.

And about "an every single vote" - can you remember a Diebold history? :-)
So, you are not very honest with us when you speak about "every sigle vote" :-)

As i said - "honest elections" is a myth.

[quote=commissar]
There is no direct presidential election, true. The current Electoral College system has been scrutinized many times throughout the history and was left alone. It seems to work, although may not be perfect. I would be OK with either. Although with direct election hardly anyone would care about fewer populated states and that was the whole reason for the current system, to my knowledge.
[/quote]

There was a very interesting situation with previous US elections.

Real votes shared as about 50/50 with very small excess (at the level of statistical error).

But the Electoral Colleague choosed Bush with reasonable excess.

So, you can have an interesting situation when most people choose one candidate, but your Electoral Colleague chooses another candidate.

Is this better that our straight electoral system? :-)

I think not. So, here we have a lot more clean electoral system.

And more democracy in that case :-)))

[quote=commissar]
Freedom of speech: it is true that in Russia there are lots of different opinions in the media; however, the main media outlets that reache the vast majority of people are pro-Goverment. The opposition ones can only enjoy freedom on the Internet that most Russians have no access to.
[/quote]

As i said, we have not real opposition that is electorally capable.

And there should be a political theater in 10-20 years here in Russia.

[quote=commissar]
In US, most media belongs to left-wingers that are very critical of the current Government. FoxNews seems to be the only exception. I would not call Fox pro-Bush though, far from that. Besides, pro- or against Bush is not a criteria that I use anyway. Now, the Internet news sources & talk radio are more conservative than TV & newspapers.

Assumming Fox is pro-current Government (it is not though), the rest of them are not.
[/quote]

The real business is not in the Bush critic.

But it is in the real problems observing, not in the artificial ones.

[quote=commissar]
Real democracy means equal access for all candidates, free unrestricted elections conforming to the law; accountability of elected representatives; freedom of speech and of press. That's what first comes to my mind.
[/quote]

But we have the equal access!

Look at our laws.

Your words are based on another myth, built by US & Eu press.

Every candidate has a full access to TV & press at the pre-elections time.

Really, the access to the press is based on money. Looks similar to US rules :-)

[quote=commissar]
I did not say Russia is better or US is better, it would be too broad statement which does not mean a thing. Each country is better in some ways and worse in other ways for every given individual as we are all created unique.

I do not think of my mentality being American or Russian. I know many people in Russia who agree with me and many that do not, and likewise here in the US. Unfortunately, I don't feel comfortable in Russia like I was relatively comfortable in the former USSR; I feel much better in USA than in modern Russia; so I guess you can call me American.
[/quote]

I meant exactly the same. But these words are very common: everybody can say them and nothing will be changed at all.[hr]Oh, by the way, did you find the Гумилев theory?

[Kent Профиль СайтICQ]

Уж от кого не ожидал таких развернутых постов. rjo, вот смотри, говорят что в штатах легче подняться с нуля. Американская мечта и все такое. Мне кажется, что ты твердо уверен в том, что наша страна ничуть не хуже в этом плане. Что каждый может, если захочет. И твоя уверенность конечно же основывается на личных успехах. Не знаю, может мне кажется, а ты так не считаешь. Выскажу свое мнение на этот счет.

Считаю, что в России действительно труднее выбиться из низов. Наша страна ограниченных возможностей по сравнению с США. Вина лежит отчасти на плохом законодательстве и коррупции, отчасти на произволе властей. У слабых, встающих на ноги людей все отбирают и это является нормой. К примеру, у знакомого отобрали перспективный бизнес, по его глупости, но в америке бы это не прокатило, т.к. действовали через ментов. Встают на ноги самостоятельно только действительно очень стойкие или везучие.

Пришло время отступить в сторону, и объяснить, что я подразумеваю под встать на ноги в России. Это означает иметь стабильный ежемесячный доход в районе от 90000-100000 рублей белой зар.платы, которую приносит собственный небольшой бизнес, или престижная служба. Приличное жилье, семья, дети, и т.д.

В Америке, судя по myth, мне не известно насколько соответствующему, действительности, стать средним классом гораздо проще. Это суть американской мечты (™).

Телек говорит, что причина такой разницы в демократии, соблюдении права человека, и т.д. Весь мир хавает эту сказку. На самом деле, все банальнее и проще. В какой стране больше бабла, в такой стране люди лучше и живут. Россия бедная, у верхушки нет капитала, который измеряется не только суммами, но и стабильностью, количеством поколений, живущих богато и неприкасаемо. Поэтому и население ее беднее.
Стать богаче можно, но денежной массы хватает только на избранных (связи, БОЛЬШОЕ везение, БОЛЬШОЕ старание). В Америке все тоже самое. Только денег больше. Чтобы добиться того же уровня, человеку нужно приложить гораздо меньшие старания. Поэтому все бегут, потому что не хватает сил здесь получить то, что могут получить там. При этом ругают власть, ментов, бандитов. А откуда в Америке деньги? Все просто. Америка обворовала и продолжает обворовывать мир, как это делала до нее Англия. Они дают нам побрякушки, а взамен выкачивают черное золото. Она именно обворовала, а не заработала. Почему? Потому что современных технологий и знаний достаточно для того, чтобы люди во всем мире добивались Американской мечты с равными возможностями. Но эти возможности постоянно кастрируются. Почему? Потому что тогда их средняя ЗП была бы не 30000-40000$ год (если не ошибаюсь). Тогда все бы получали 10000. Я говорю не о комунизме, а о равных начальных возможностях.

Итак, резюмируя, Америка эксплуатирует мир. Европа меньше его эксплуатирует. Москва эксплуатирует Россию. Богатые бедных. Мир так устроен. Демократии нет.

Ярослав, ваше слово.

[rjo Профиль]

в целом вполне соглашусь.

да, я считаю, что мы ничуть не хуже в этом плане.
правда моя цель не средний класс и "ипотека", но это другой вопрос.

[Kent Профиль СайтICQ]

[quote=rjo]
да, я считаю, что мы ничуть не хуже в этом плане.
правда моя цель не средний класс и "ипотека", но это другой вопрос.
[/quote]

Да, я как раз про это забыл добавить. В Америке стать миллионером не легче чем в России.